bulfroggie wrote:I know this is a long shot, but is there anyone here that owns this and has fired it through a chrono with alloy pellets?
I'm tempted to buy this but only if it's supersonic for reasons relating to what I do for a living. The specs say 1200 fps, but I want to know if it really (and reliably) hits that.

With all this anti-weapon rhetoric on Woot today, may I point out that the homicide rate is the lowest it's been in 50 years - despite this sudden "gun problem" people seem to think we have. Despite all the violent video games and music. It's all hype. The media coverage has increased, that is all. Woot isn't somehow making your kids into killers by selling this to adults.

According to this review , this gun would get to 1000 fps on alloy pellet and somewhere in the 900 fps for lead pellet .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj9I7oSBfC4

I'm tempting on this one ,too . The cheapest I can find around for this piece is $129 (airgunstyle).
I own several airguns but never an air long rifle .

sjt2115 wrote:And if you look at all gun homicides, not just assault weapons, you get a number which is more than double the rate for all other types of homicides COMBINED.

There have also been zero mass killings committed with hammers.

Ban all blunt objects before it happens!

I'm not even going to get into the discussion of politics - biggest problem with any actual discussion is everyone is so convinced they are right, and only they are right... That is why we, the people, won't see any real solutions on anything from our legislatures on guns, immigration, budget, taxes, etc

But - simply on the merits of this Woot... I have multiple air rifles. Most are German - an old Weihrauch, some Diana (RWS) and others. I also have some firearms, but that's not what we're here to discuss.

1. These are not toys. These are weapons. My one tuned RWS has almost 40 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. This gun won't pack that hit, but it still is a weapon.

2. Spring piston guns can be a challenge to shoot, but that is part of what makes them fun. They are a challenge because of the motion going on with the spring and the piston moving.

3. Even before the Woot price, this is a very inexpensive weapon, don't expect too much, but it should still be fun for a starter. Too bad they didn't just put iron sites on it and skip the silly scope - it probably has lousy optics and imo will actually make the gun less fun.

4. The spring mechanism imparts a lot of force - I cannot find the cocking force for this gun and I don't know if it has any kind of "anti bear trap" mechanism. Take care as it is possible with some to pop off a finger if the gun is not fully cocked and the barrel slams shut with your finger in the way!

5. I have spring piston guns because I have acreage that boarders roads. I have some varmint problems. I cannot legally shoot towards the road with a firearm, but I can with an airgun. (I still have to be smart and safe as a 22 grain pellet can carry.)

6. A .177, even with 1000 fps muzzle velocity will not make a very affective and humane pest control weapon. The pellets are too light and they do not carry their energy well like a heavier .22 will.

7. These will likely be fairly rough in their action, even my Weihrauch got a trigger and mechanism 'tune' I do my own tunes

8. The springs in these guns are long and strong and under preload. Do not just take the mechanism apart unless you know what you're doing and have a spring compressor.

9. These are not toys. Children should not be turned loose unsupervised with them. Though they can be a good way to get together with your kids to be involved and teach gun safety. My kids have learned enough to know to simply walk away, >leave< if they are at someone's house and someone says "hey look, I know how to get into my dad's gun case". The fascination with guns has been removed because they've seen them.

10. Spring piston guns are generally quiet. Never run out of air or CO2. Pellets are reasonably priced. No smoke and I can shoot at home, don't have to go to the range.

11. Air guns, especially spring piston, IMO, are pellet sensitive. You have to try different pellets until you find the style and weight that your gun likes.

12. Spring piston guns are 'hold sensitive' (Again, one of the reasons they are both fun and a challenge)

13. I don't like the styling of this or the other airguns that pretend to be assault weapons.

Some sources: Pellet sampler is a neat product - http://www.straightshooters.com/straight-shooters-full-pellet-sampler-.177.html

Also see Calculators part way down on left hand slider at: http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/

Muzzle energy: http://www.pyramydair.com/article/What_is_Muzzle_Energy_August_2003/5

MacReiter wrote:Decades of research has shown that lead poisoning causes significant
and probably irreversible damage to the brain.

I had to LOL, and yes ROFL at this as "lead poisoning" is a common euphemism for being shot. So I can certainly see how "lead poisoning" could impact the brain in a negative manner.

Otherwise, there certainly is a lot of knee+jerks+reactionary upinhere. No sense in attempting debate since there is no room for any, and no beer in front of me, so....

One other LOL point: I'm certainly glad big cities don't allow these. That's a lot of broken windows, donchaknow.

To the moon with you, then. Better off not wasting oxygen.

Buying one, just because of this delicate flower.

Rock on, Woot! You never disappoint.

/well, there was that refurb TV . . .

gweiss36 wrote:Agreed 100%. For many years I've been a loyaly woot.com customer, and have enjoyed checking the site each day. Seeing this on the home page ruined the image I had of woot big-time, enough to make me never want to buy anything from them again. A shameful display of poor judgement, and a very distasteful tone to the description of the item. To the moon with you, woot.

Your Army M-16 is actually quite a bit faster at around 3000 fps give or take using standard m193 ammo. Just sayin..

russwjohns wrote:1. This item is NOT for children and why would children be playing with it anyway?

2. And if you REALLY feel that way, such opinions should not be tied to some contemporaneous event.

This item is more of an adult toy and not a weapon although as I vaguely recall, my Army M16 had a similar muzzle velocity as this airgun. BTW, Big 5 Sporting Goods often offers steep discounts on airguns for those interested is this item.

Note that Woot requires an adult recipient sign for delivery:

Warning: Airguns and airsoft guns are not toys and are recommended for use by those 16 years of age or older. Adult supervision is required. Misuse or careless use may cause serious injury. Do not brandish or display your airgun/airsoft gun in public. It may confuse people and it may be a crime. Police and others may think an airgun/airsoft gun is a firearm.

I found this review helpful:
http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2012/12/the-surprising-crosman-tr77.html


All in all, I'd say for this price range of an air gun, this isn't a bad deal. Nice starter air gun.

bbkf wrote:does not contribute to violence? Its meant to kill things! what is your definition of violence? This is why our society is in a lot of danger. People defend guns by attacking other objects. it just shows a lack of intelligence and ability to come up with a reasonable argument.

bbkf wrote:does not contribute to violence? Its meant to kill things!

This is a SINGLE SHOT PELLETT rifle. It does NOT encourage violence anymore than a knife encourages violence. One of the things that a knife is meant for is for self-defense and killing things. Shall we rag on WOOT for selling knives too? Ban knife sales too? Rat poison, raid, ant spray, etc… sold at almost all retail home centers are 100% meant for killing…shall we ban those too?
Did you know that even the cubscouts and the boyscouts teach gun & archery safety using real bow&arrows and bb/pellet rifles. Do you think that the cub/boyscouts are being taught to be violent?

bbkf wrote: what is your definition of violence?

Probably the same as others: any act that causes harm or intends to do harm against another person. You can further expand this to animals, physical property, etc….
What is your point? Just because someone owns a PELLET rifle, it does not make the owner a violent person. You do know that people like to “plink” with these pellet rifles (as opposed to killing people). Plinking is essentially shooting at inanimate targets.

bbkf wrote: This is why our society is in a lot of danger.

Such a loaded comment: There are so many things that ail our society, not just the gun debate issue. Racism, prejudice, greed, lack of parenting/too much coddling for young kids, economy (both macro and micro), inability for our politicians to work TOGETHER for the betterment of our society as opposed to arguing who is wrong who is right, people thinking they are entitled to things without earning them (entitlement), etc etc…pick your poison.

bbkf wrote: People defend guns by attacking other objects. it just shows a lack of intelligence and ability to come up with a reasonable argument.

WOOT is selling a PELLET rifle NOT an actual firearm. You are bringing the gun debate on the sale of a PELLETT rifle. Your personal opinion to the gun debate is yours and are most definitely welcome to it…but this is a PELLETT rifle not an actual firearm.
Please define what other objects people are using to defend guns. What objects are you talking about? Yes, guns are dangerous, but not more so than the person behind the gun. If the person is a responsible gun owner, they take proper precautions to safeguard those around them as well as the weapons (ie proper training/practice, proper discussion, safe/lockbox, trigger lock, etc…).


Sorry to fellow wooters. I posted on the first page of this string. This will be my last for this product for this sale. I just dont understand people bringing the gun debate issue to a PELLETT rifle.

prosperouscheat wrote:Nice try but there's no link between music, shows or video games and violent behavior.

On the contrary, law enforcement and military use "video simulators" to train recruits how to use weapons to...

mitrebox wrote:Woot sells wine. Alcohol 'contributes to violence' not to mention health risks when used improperly.

And not everyone can buy wine, but that's ok. I see you brought your own.

You sir, are my hero today.

rettm wrote:It's lazy & irresponsible to blame the gun. Would people blame the chain saw if this kid was unsupervised with a Stihl?

No one blamed the gun, the kids is most certainly to blame. It is the job of the city to impose regulation to protect the people and property of the city and while a pellet/BB/airsoft gun is certainly more likely to be used/considered toylike, I can understand regulation to limit the FPS that can be shot in the city. I personally don't think they could/would check to see what it was shooting at unless someone was injured, nor do I think it matters much, but I can see why a city might have such regulation. I would much like to live in a city that I can go to my backyard and shoot my gun. So long as I am safe with it and not doing it at rediculous hours, I don't see why it would matter.

If I didn't just buy a Gamo Whisper I would be all over this thing. I have plenty of real rifles to play with but a good pellet gun is a lot of fun for target shooting or varmint control.

To the cry babies and haters... No one cares what you think as it has nothing to do with the quality or function of the product itself.

SumDuud wrote:No one blamed the gun, the kids is most certainly to blame. It is the job of the city to impose regulation to protect the people and property of the city and while a pellet/BB/airsoft gun is certainly more likely to be used/considered toylike, I can understand regulation to limit the FPS that can be shot in the city. I personally don't think they could/would check to see what it was shooting at unless someone was injured, nor do I think it matters much, but I can see why a city might have such regulation. I would much like to live in a city that I can go to my backyard and shoot my gun. So long as I am safe with it and not doing it at rediculous hours, I don't see why it would matter.

How about taking responsibility for your actions and using a little common sense? People like you empower the Nanny State. I guess you need the state to limit the size of your soft drinks as well.

primadogga wrote:Could we please have a comment from someone who has actually used one of these?

Why yes, yes you can...

I own 1 of these, as well as a Gamo similar to the one on Woot a little while back. I use them to take out rabbits that get into my backyard garden, and to scare away deer, coyotes and bobcats that wander in.

I use the Gamo to kill rabbits - much better at 1-shot kills. The Crossman is much more accurate (though I don't know why), but not as powerful, so I use it to give the deer, coyotes and bobcats a reason to not come back, i.e. a pellet in the rear.

Oh, and they're both loads of fun for target shooting too

Hope that helps

cope413 wrote:Why yes, yes you can...

I own 1 of these, as well as a Gamo similar to the one on Woot a little while back. I use them to take out rabbits

OH YEAH...
Well I'm planting a garden this year Just For the Little Bunnies to Eat!

bellabby wrote:To sell this product at this time is more than distasteful and disgusting. You should not provide such easy access to any form of guns, fake or not, so soon after the recent school tradedy in Newtown. Children do not need to play with this realistic looking gun. I have bought from Woot before but I am considering boycotting your web site.

Every retailer hates to lose a customer, but give me a break...YOU are going to boycott WOOT. Since you have made one purchase and only given an opinion once (i.e.; this post), I doubt you will be missed.

I'll shed a tear for your leaving WOOT while I teach gun safety and responsibility to those who truly understand right from wrong. We will say a prayer for those who have suffered losses of any kind, and another prayer for the misinformed (such as you, who blame the product and manufacturer instead of the perpetrator).

I guess that when we mourn the loss of our Constitutional Rights, we will have to honor them with a "21 Knife Salute".

mschauber wrote:It's about time you stop selling products that you can't sell to a huge portion of the population of this country!!!!

Relax, it's just an airgun.

mschauber wrote:It's about time you stop selling products that you can't sell to a huge portion of the population of this country!!!!!

Not to mention that you're contributing to the violence and mayhem in this country. But forgetting about politics and what's right and wrong for a second, as a business you need to get your asses working on getting products anyone in the country can buy!!!!!!!

This is a joke right? ok good.

gweiss36 wrote:Agreed 100%. For many years I've been a loyaly woot.com customer, and have enjoyed checking the site each day. Seeing this on the home page ruined the image I had of woot big-time, enough to make me never want to buy anything from them again. A shameful display of poor judgement, and a very distasteful tone to the description of the item. To the moon with you, woot.

To save my time, just read my response to "bellabby"; although, you have made between 10 and 24 purchases in 7-8 years.

Maybe I will buy 3 of these to cover WOOT's losses. -lol-

geo8rge wrote:First a cordless drill, now a cordless gun, certainly not the old Woot.

In the words of Larry the Cable Guy, "that's funny right there, I don't care who you are, that's funny."

How DARE auto manufacturers continue selling cars after fatal traffic accidents? Distasteful.

You know you don't have to buy one if you don't like it.

bellabby wrote:To sell this product at this time is more than distasteful and disgusting. You should not provide such easy access to any form of guns, fake or not, so soon after the recent school tradedy in Newtown. Children do not need to play with this realistic looking gun. I have bought from Woot before but I am considering boycotting your web site.

jamesonbirrell wrote:Half! (in two decades) Really... I'd love to read your sources. How are you defining "violence" and what are the geographical boundaries your statistic is supposed to be referencing? You seem like a nice person, but please give more details for such an outrageous comment... Or just don't wrote it. I don't believe it.
You, and the other commentator, should be more careful in your wording about violent video games (and the propensity for their players to commit violent acts). I haven't done much research on violent music or movies, but the jury is still out on video games! It's been a big topic of interest for me for quite some time... Unbiased (or as close as you can get) research will reveal that there is a slight favor to the argument that at least temporary increased aggression occurs after violent (first person shooter genre) video game play.
Anyway, your probably a great person, but where did 50% come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Crime (property, violent, and homicide) peaked during the late 80's and early 90's. Today we are at about half of what it was at it's peak 20 years ago.

And I have been keeping up with the BS links between crime and video games, because I'm an avid gamer. The increased aggression shortly after playing a video game is no different than the increase after doing anything risky or entertaining, reading, movie, music, anything exciting in a sport, you name it. It's all faux reporting scare tactics.

This discussion shouldn't have even happened in the first place. Annoying political correctness and bleeding heart Fluttershy footin' interfering with Woots desire to sell a weapon of mass destruction.

I think this is an assault weapon under Dianne Feinstein's new bill. Oh no! :-O

bellabby wrote:To sell this product at this time is more than distasteful and disgusting. You should not provide such easy access to any form of guns, fake or not, so soon after the recent school tradedy in Newtown. Children do not need to play with this realistic looking gun. I have bought from Woot before but I am considering boycotting your web site.

So I guess you didn't read the warning, you know, the one that says this isn't a toy, and adult supervision is required? And who are you to decide what all children need? Did someone make you the Czar of all children? I think that children need to learn what a gun is early, and at least learn that they are something that should be treated with respect. I bet no one ever taught you that, and that's why you think this way. Would you even know how to check a firearm to see if it's loaded? You do all you can to protect your children from the real world, shelter them, coddle them, keep them ignorant of the world around them. you have that right. I would teach my children how live in this world, explain everything I know to them. That way, when I die, or am not around, they will at least have a fighting chance in this world. My hope is that they can look at a gun, know that it is real, and have enough respect for it to leave it alone.

ThunderThighs wrote:Checked with the buyer and he agrees:

The Crosman website does state it has sights however after reviewing the images we took as well as Crosman’s images, I don’t see any sights. I removed the sights from the sale.

You keep saying this, but under specs it still says:
Front Sight Fiber Optic
Rear Sight Adjustable.

“Never trust a government that doesn't trust its own citizens with guns.”

- Benjamin Franklin

idontkn1 wrote:Really? The stats at least in terms homicides (I didn't have time to find this for all violent crimes BOJS website isn't the easiest thing to navigate) don't bear this out. If anything the trend has been the opposite. Homicide Rates.

Violent crime is far more than homicides, which you seem to be constantly returning to. And as you later put onto me, right back at you here, I did say violent crime, not homicides.

Again, I may be wrong. The source I read last year which I can't locate now may be comparing by generation at the time of the same respective age. There may likely be a weeding out period, much like older drivers get in less accidents and less fatal ones, due to experience and something akin to natural selection.

This logically makes sense too. With a growing population, the older and younger generation population numbers each continue to rise, but the overall violence rate has gone down. You aren't going to get a 50% decrease in 20 years because of a greater elderly percentage while the absolute number of young people was/is at all time highs too.

idontkn1 wrote:I never knew that incarceration was like a quilting bee where the old salts swap war stories with the new guys. As someone who has worked for one of the largest county jails in the US for nearly tens years the vast majority of people I have encountered keep to themselves as much as possible and just want to do their time and get out. Regardless of cause, both policies along with mandatory sentencing significantly increased the incarceration rate. When you remove a larger portion of the population who tend to commit violent crimes. I'm not sure how much experience you have with the prison population but the percentage of career offenders who as rational as you describe is quite low.

You only really get to say that if you follow them before and after though. Do you?

And they aren't rational. They just don't get caught as easily. They learn. Some think it's the cause of most unsolves and the difficulty with the drug trade today--an underbelly more than an outright turf war.

idontkn1 wrote:That's why I specifically prefaced it with "homicide rates".

Umm, gee, that's why I specifically prefaced it with "violent crime rate."

Yes, I'm well aware of that at the time you tried to sneak that in when violent crime rate, not just a subset known as homicide rates, was being addressed, which is why I was trying to return it to relevancy. Medical care increases survival rates, it doesn't have much to do with violent crime rates. There's going to certainly be of help in increasing victim and hence likely key witness survival and solving the crime/finding the perp, but look at the rates per 100,000, you're talking violent crime vs homicide rates which an order of magnitude in difference.

dmetsopoulos wrote:You are being ridiculous.First, items like this sell like hot cakes all over the US. I suggest moving to a state with some rational thought. Second what's contributing to the violence are parents who don't bring their children up properly but letting them listen to hateful music, watch violent shows, and play disgusting video games. Done be a drone, think independently and use some common sense.

Did you know that your avatar just *screams* "Get those kids OFF MAH LAWN!"

BTW, blaming entertainment is just as silly as blaming the weapon.
(We now return you to your fist shaking, already in progress.)

Good gift for a kid. Train 'em early to be a brain-dead gun nut, of a future evening news headline.

I'm pretty sure this is a troll.

bellabby wrote:To sell this product at this time is more than distasteful and disgusting. You should not provide such easy access to any form of guns, fake or not, so soon after the recent school tradedy in Newtown. Children do not need to play with this realistic looking gun. I have bought from Woot before but I am considering boycotting your web site.

I'd just like to point out that 93% of statistics are made up, 86% of the time.

Amen. Well said.

kane968 wrote:How's this for rhetoric?

Guns are tools just like anything else. A gun is a hammer is a knife is a wrench is a screwdriver. The real difference is the person wielding it. Now, you may say that a gun's sole purpose is killing. That's true, but how do you think the red meat you eat gets to your table? At some point, it was shot, whether it be the bounty of hunting or the product of Bovine University.

Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned that a 10-year-old in Tollhouse, CA (http://abclocal.go.com/kfsn/story?section=news/local&id=8945476) was killed by a pellet gun recently. Yes, it is sad that he is dead and gone, but there are three important points here:
1. Why did he and a friend have access to a pellet gun? Age limits on pellet guns exist for a reason, just like age limits on alcohol.
2. If they did have access to a pellet gun, why were they using it in an unsafe manner? If it was available to them, they should've been taught how to handle it safely.
3. Where were the parents? Doing a laughably poor job of raising a child is now somehow a pellet gun's fault? Why were the children unsupervised? Why was the gun left accessible to them? Why were they not taught how to handle it safely?

You are the problem with people and society today. A sad event like this happens, and you, and you see a failure in our legislating of guns. I see a failure in our parenting.

This is not everybody else's fault, least of all the gun manufacturer's. The manufacturer was not out there pointing his product at children, the children were. If the kid had seen the Three Stooges and hit his friend in the head with a hammer and killed him, would you be crying out against the hammer manufacturer?

MrBobO wrote:Good gift for a kid. Train 'em early to be a brain-dead gun nut, of a future evening news headline.

IF you're shopping for a kid, get him Jim Jones's apple cider recipe instead. Or possibly the DVD Box Set of Jersey Shore.

ursalita wrote:A gun that at first glance resembles the weapon that was used in Newtown was just about the last thing I wanted to see on my Woot Daily Digest. Thanks for that.

In contrast, the last thing I want to see are deranged and/or evil people that would perform atrocities such as what happened in Newtown.

sjt2115 wrote:And if you look at all gun homicides, not just assault weapons, you get a number which is more than double the rate for all other types of homicides COMBINED.

There have also been zero mass killings committed with hammers.

So what you're saying is that the death/killing of a person is worse if it occurs in bunches? I'm sorry, but the parents of a dead child don't feel any better if he/she was mugged and murdered, killed by a drunk driver, killed as a result of road rage or shot in a shooting spree in a public place. The latter gets more media play and tugs at our heart strings more but only because it more forcefully causes us to contemplate the magnitude of death. If the local news started with a tribute to the 115 people that were killed in auto accidents today (and every day) and showed pictures of each of them and their grieving families we might do more about auto safety and drunk driving and texting while driving.

Please do boycott. I'd rather not shop at the same places as people with such asinine views. I'm sure they'll hate losing your 1 Woot purchase, too. You are aware that Woot is headquartered in TX, right?

bellabby wrote:To sell this product at this time is more than distasteful and disgusting. You should not provide such easy access to any form of guns, fake or not, so soon after the recent school tradedy in Newtown. Children do not need to play with this realistic looking gun. I have bought from Woot before but I am considering boycotting your web site.

BArREASS wrote:Yeah! Like that attack on a school in China that happened on the same day as the Newtown shooting. Guy with a knife attacked an elementary school and stabbed 20+ children!

Oh wait, no one died in that attack.

Nice selective cheat. Most people know there's a difference between slashings or stabbings, and a massacre. I said massacres and attacks.

Nanping school massacre 8 elementary school kids dead. 5 injured. Knife attack. March 2010.

2 months later, 7 kindergarteners killed. Cleaver.

August 2010, 20 slashed, 3 killed. Kindergarten.

Your referencing the December 2012 Chenpeng Village Primary School stabbings. In China, in and since 2010, there have been at least 2 similar slashing events where no one died.

There have been more minor events, included weaponry a hammer and an axe.

So that's what, 6 events where 10+ were harmed or a massacre.

Gun ownership in China is heavily restricted, essentially hunting at best. They also have a ridiculously prompt judicial and execution system.

After the event you pointed out, legislation to restrict knife sales or permit large knives were supposedly/reported submitted by their politicians.

Does this only shoot pellets? Or BB's too?